65 thoughts on “Expedition Leaderboards: Good or Bad?”

1. I received this comment, which I feel is worth adding to the mix:

   “Someone who has gone to a lot of trouble to be able to make a half decent effort on 160 is may well be more “deserving” of his 160m QSO than someone who can’t be bothered to put up anything better than a dodgy G5RV on 20 and complains that he cannot get in the log for a first QSO”

2. Hi Michael,

   First of all, sorry for my lack of vocabulary.

   Althouth I started Dxing in 95, I’m really a new “DX’er”, cause I just started again to make some DX stations in late january (2012). I decided to “give a new try” to my hobby I got when I was younger.

   In 2002, I stopped making some DX Station for mainly one reason : no more motivation on DXing.

   I was using a very small station, and I was living in a place where no one was making some DX like I was.

   When in late january 2012, I put a Spiderbeam just in order to try to make a QSO with Malpelo, I started to look for HK0NA’s log. And thanks to CLubLog, I discovered a “new world”.

   I discovered how many French stations was able to work such a rare DX Station (not “so” rare, but let’s say rare enought to make a big event). I discovered some callsigns close from my QTH, and I started to understand this new way to work DX Station. I also started to contact by mail some people on the leaderboard to get from them few advices (special mention to Jeff, *6AOJ).

   I’m not really a DXCC hunter, I really don’t care about awards. But believe me or not, I started to work DX, on CW and even on RTTY just because I was happy to give more QSOs to some DX stations I was please to make QSO with.

   For exemple, YJ0VK, which is not a really rare DXCC. I started to work them on SSB. I was so happy for this unique first QSO, than I decided to try to find them on other bands. Conditions were not so good, but thanks to ClubLog, I started to see on the Leaderboards other French station which were able to work them on other bands and modes. As I’m not hunting awards, it’s just a pleasure to collect slots.

   Pleasure, and fair competition. That’s the way I’m using ClubLog.

3. Hi All

   I enjoy thr chase with my fellow DXers, the stations that have smaller stations, I invite them over if they want to work them from here if conditions are tough I think it encourages comaradery between members with all size of stations to work for the good of all DXers
   I consider myself a mid size station

   Chuck
   N6OJ

4. Michael, nice response! In that the DXpedition makes the decision whether or not to use leaderboards, you clearly have given them the tools to tailor the results base on time, rarity, operators, etc. I hope the really rare ones will make the decision wisely. The critiques being circulated are really a nit compared to all the great features Clublog delivers to all. Thanks 73 Bob

5. I don’t think anyone is saying that the ClubLog leader board should be done away with but I am of the feeling it should be altered. Again, using your numbers, 26 band slots going to one station to me is unacceptable. Is there an award out there that uses DXCC countries by band/modes? Only ones I know of only go by bands regardless of mode.

   My position is not to deny anyone to work a new one on whatever band they may need but to bring back some kind courtesy towards those that need it.

   My suggestion is having slots as follows: 9 band slots, 1 CW slot, 1 SSB slot, 1 RTTY/Digital slot. In my opinion there is only one reason to have to work a DXpedition every band, every mode is to brag. It has nothing to do with awards.

   To the gentleman above who offered his station for others to use to work an expedition, how will the line of several thousand operators be handled? That is a nice offer but will get shutdown after he is asked for the 50th time at 3am to use his station to work an expedition on 160.

   Question: What is the default? Is it for the expedition to activate it or is it automatically set for all bands/modes?

   This is one of those subjects that can go on forever without an agreement.

   ClubLog is a great resource and I enjoy using it.

   73,
   Tim, KQ8M

6. Thanks for such a thought-provoking piece Michael. You have distilled or at least hinted at several factors in this complex and dynamic situation.

   From my perspective, the on-air behaviours of DXers and DXpeditioners, which are themselves driven largely by the personal attitudes, goals, morals, interests and psychology of the people involved, are the primary determinants of the success or otherwise of the individual pileups and hence the DXpeditions overall. T32C, for instance, involved a dedicated and sizeable team of committed operators with a clear plan, significant resources, and a strategy to give an All Time New One to as many hams as possible. Peer pressure within the team gave a consistency to the operating styles of different ops, plus the motivation and skills to keep charge of the pileups. Consistency is important because it helps settle the pile into an efficient routine, for example discouraging out-of-turn and continuous callers. Personally I don’t think we pay quite enough attention to rhythm and flow.

   Aside from operating skills, T32C having a commanding signal I’m sure made a difference too: a QRP or barefoot DXpeditioner with no-gain antennas would struggle to be heard over the zoo, hence things can quickly get out of hand.

   At the same time, the DX community responds to the situation that unfolds, bringing peer pressure on individual DXers to play the game. While the DX Code of Conduct is an attempt to specify acceptable DXing behaviors, it is merely a distillation of a much more diffuse set of attitudes and practices that plays out on-air. And the reality is that we DXers are a diverse bunch, from all cultures, with a wide range of skills and interests. Taming the zoo really is like herding cats.

   Leader boards, awards, leagues and other forms of metric are important motivators both for DXers and DXpeditioners. You mentioned a few specific metrics in your piece but there are many more. For instance, there’s the fun factor or enjoyment quotient, which (as far as I’m concerned) rates unusual DX QSOs under challenging circumstances way above run-of-the-mill QSOs. It’s not necessarily about competing with other hams, or working exotic DX, so much as making the effort and succeeding against the odds to complete a QSO when the path is marginal, the QRM high and so on. I believe the challenge aspect is the reason that DXCC is so popular: if it were easy to work the lot, it would not be so satisfying. Leader boards, leagues etc. are popular for the same reasons: they encourage most of us to try harder, and in so doing to have more fun. The underlying issue is whether they push us into being selfish, getting our fun at the expense of others – and that’s the key question that DXpeditioners and DXers need to consider when deciding whether to publish or participate in leader boards etc.

   73
   Gary ZL2iFB

   PS Club Log has the data to make the leader boards much smarter, for instance perhaps introducing a handicap system to emphasise the achievements of novice DXers with less than 100 DXCC under their belts over members of the Honor Roll, or giving double or treble points for people filling all time new band slots, or using QRP or whatever.

7. BTW, The previous senders Name, email and website show in the leave a reply fields.

8. Tim – thanks for pointing that out, I’ll sort it!

9. Just thought of this. If we are talking about the enjoyment of working the DXpedition, using our station to the max and being able to get through easily, then isn’t it also fun to work an expedition over and over and over on the same band, same mode because you can?

   There used to be a station that used the mantra: “Work them every band, every mode, every operator, every day.” This we say is not acceptable but working the same station on all three different modes on every band is. I don’t understand then and I have been doing this for 40years.

   Tim, KQ8M

10. I am often one of those that don’t get through in the pileups and have been dismayed when i lookup some of the stations I have heard making the contact and discovering it was theyr 20’th contact with the DX.

    I am not a big gun, I live in a small house in the suburbs where building code forbids towers and beams. So I am stuck with a wire antenna hung from a flagpole, and the amount of power I can use is limited by the closeness of my neighbours.

    Some of the Expeditions are very good at spotting changes in conditions and directing calls from the areas that have suddenly become accessible, but they will have trouble hearing the little guy like me over the big gun with tower, beam and PA..

    I hope the leaderboards and the big guns dont ruin the game for us.

    Greetings from Denmark
    Jesper Wolf Jespersen
    OZ8ACE

11. Hi Michael,
    I’m a little pistol and I am no match for the guns or the JA / NA or the EU wall.
    I have to sit and pounce when the time arrives. You have made some valid comments
    here and I congratulate you for your efforts.

    Your leader board has not created the competition, the competition was started when DXpedtions posted they worked 45,000 calls in 10 days back in the early days your leader board has brought this to the 21st century and has drawn the line in the sand , I believe many Dxpeditions now have to KNOCK OFF the last leader or aim to do so now to be in with a chance and all this will do is drop the number of unique calls in the log, adding a prize for this is the incentive to pursue the Leader board and to hell with the spirit
    of Dxing and move over we are going to WIN at all costs. The costs being the smaller countries whos ham population can be counted on 1 hand, and the small pistol operator who does their best from there attic or their Dipole etc ..

    How about a substantial prize for the Dxpeditition who works the most unique calls, this would promote another competition ..

    Leader boards are for the big guns and the antenna farm experts with big power, bigger tower and bigger antenna etc and I believe a DXpedition is NOT a contest nor should it be, yet it appears that many are seen as competitions .

    A new batch of Dxers has come about over the years the old days are gone and many of the older ham population have their DXCC and HR etc,etc some of the new operators are starting out and require many of these current DXpeditions and many new operators don’t have the big antennas ( due to local body restrictions ) of yesteryear and have to make do with compromise antennas to be in with a chance.

    Super stations , Big Guns etc all have there places in our hobby but they should not command a Dxpedition or turn a Dxpedtition into a Competition.

    Contests / competitions world wide are all divided by classes be it Horse racing, Car racing, 100 meter sprint, London marathon, Soccer , Rugby , yachting powerboat racing all have classes that restrict competitors to their classes for an even match , so why doesn’t our hobby have this ? Yet DXpedition contesting is not.

    So do we now look at a Dxpedition say to Scarborough Reef as a competition or do we ask the organiser to please don’t use the leader board ?

    I thought the aim of a Dxpedition was to activate a Rare or exotic entity and give all a chance to work it or have I got this wrong ?

    Looking at the Dxpedition Wiki one has to wonder if a Dxpedtition is now what is used to be ” activation of a Rare or Exotic entity ” as it would appear the wiki has over time changed and moved to DXpedition contesting from the Rare entity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DX-pedition

    73 Phillip

12. Phillip:

    “How about a substantial prize for the Dxpeditition who works the most unique calls, this would promote another competition ..”

    Watch this space – that is exactly what is being proposed!

13. Most of the people working a station for 20 contacts probably already have that enity in the log long ago. I see them as DX Hogs..nothing more…nothing less.

14. I have been a Ham since Jan 2011. I newcomer to the hobby to say the least.
    I station is small to say the least. If people chose to have large stations (and can afford them), then that is their choice.
    I love chasing DX. I hate dealing with people that are rude, send deliberate QRM, and fail to listen to the instructions of the station being worked. I feel if everyone was more courteous to each other, the chance of working “new one” would be grater.
    I do not know if the leaderboards has a negative affect or not. I am slow to cticize any of the expeditions about how they operate because it is they “not me” that are spending money, time and effort to provide these opportunities. A little competition seems to usually be good. I just want everyone to be considerate of others. We all want a chance, no matter how large or small the station
    73 KF7NMDeeeeveryone to remember this is a hobby and that everyone

15. Michael, very nice open letter with good set of facts. I do hope they can select the option and I would be happy with as KQ8M suggested 9 band slots one cw, one ssb and one digital.
    I am some days a little pistol with 100 watts in full remote control mode and a vertical antenna and other only a medium pistol with power but wire HEX Beam in valley of 11,000 foot snow peaks in Southern Californa. Club log is great and the leaderboard is a good tool but with limits. T32C is a fine example of trying to work all as your report notes.
    Keep up the great work and we support your great tool.
    Russ, K5OA

16. I do not believe that Clublog has perpetuated the working of multiple slots by dxers. This has been going on for many years. The only change clublog has brought to the dx community is that every one can now see the data in virtual real time.
    I have always believed thst it is too simplistic an argument to say that a big gun working 20 slots has deprived a little pistol of 19 qsos.
    The reality is that little pistols are often only capable of making a qso at the peak of conditions on a particular path – a big gun making a qso at either side of the peak has not deprived a qso as the small pistol was not capable of getting through in any event.
    If we carry the qso deprivation argument to its obvious conclusion then all dxpeditions should only operate on 20 metres with say 6 stations on that band only.
    Why should a dxpedition work on 160 metres at all with a low qso rate when this is theoretically depriving small pistols of a qso on 20 metres?
    The fact is that big guns work more slots because they are more passionate about dxing and therefore have bigger stations, spend more time chasing the dx and have a better knowledge of propagation.
    I personally believe that small pistols have never had life easier. Thirty years ago a dxpedition typically made around 30000 qsos and even for big guns getting one or two qsos could be a challenge. These days major dxpeditions aim to make 150000 qsos and generally work 20, 17 and 15 to the point where they are cqing for long periods with few replies. If a small pistol cannot get three qsos in these circumstances then they are not trying too hard. If they are desiring more than 3 band slots then they are just as greedy as the big guns they are criticising.
    At the end of the day it is the dx that makes the rules – if they want to work 200,000 qsos and promote the working of slots then that is their call. If they want to work 160 metres only then that is their call as well.
    The role that clublog can play is promoting in advance exactly what the goals of the dxpedition may be and then measuring these goals accordingly. I am often bemused by dxpeditions that say they will be focusing on say VK//ZL but then make absolutely no effort to listen for us when the path is open.
    A nice feature would be for dxpeditions to set down there goals in advance and then clublog provides specific tools to measure how the operation is measuring up against these original goals.
    Often the lofty goals set before a dxpedition are lost in the excitment of the pile-ups.
    My final point is that a large unique qso total is not necessarily the ultimate goal. If I was activating a Pacific atoll I would value much higher 100 qsos into Europe on 160 metres than I would 100 small pistol qsos on 20 metres.
    Of course that is just me, but in this day and age of mega dxpeditions there is no reason to favour one type of qso over the other.
    Cheers
    Paul – vk4ma

17. Hi Michael,

    I appreciate your work very much, and I mean it. Chasers are offered an excellent source of information, particularly the actual best propagation times for various bands, besides the propagation forecast using various software available.

    I have been on the air for many years, and I have conducted a few small expeditions, activating 9 rare or new IOTA references. As such, I believe that I know the DXing from the both ends!

    There is absolutely no question that by offering the possibility of having 26 slots filled, most of the big guns will try to do just that: fill them! Why? Well, remember Edmund Hillary’s reply when he was asked why climbing Everest? “Because it exists!” That is exactly why they will do it. And because they are fighting against each other (regardless whether they will acknowledge it or not). It doesn’t matter how many times 3D2R will be on the air. They will go at it each and every single time, as there is no higher prize for them to work each and every single one of these 3D3R epeditions on all 26 slots – if possible.

    Last evening on the 7O6T operation I tried pretty badly to log the guys on 40m. With my conditions it might have been easier in CW, but they were only in SSB. I wrote down all the callsigns they work within a certain time span, something along the idea of a statistical data set. Then, I checked them on the ClubLog and I found that more than 40% of all those who logged them during the respective period of time had already logged them on 40 m, but on a different mode. The pile-up was fierce, and I didn’t make it in the end on 40. I do believe that I would have had a significantly higher chance to make it had the 26 slots weren’s in, but this is what the respective DXpedition chose to use and we’ll have to live with the decisions they made.

    Since some guys, including yourself, want to have the option of filling all the 26 slots, their wish will be satisfied by all those expeditions who wish to use the “large” table that Club Log provides. If a “short” table will be available (12 slopts, including 9 bands and 3 modes), then expeditions will have multiple choices: use the large table, short table, or no table at all. While personally I have never been enthusiastic about the large table, and I am not a little pistol, I think that it is completely wrong to criticize Club Log. Club Log offers a choice, it doesn’t make it mandatory for an expedition to use it. Some expeditions are using it, others are using different log seaches, and so on.

    I think that it should be very clear that it is the DXpeditions who are in charge, not Club Log. You are providing options, but it is up to the DXpedition team how they wish to run the show. It is up to them to decide the targets they wish to reach, and the logistics to get there.

    Cheers,
    Cezar, VE3LYC

18. I enjoy using the leaderboards, and for major world events like T32C, 7O6T or HK0NA they were priceless. Yes, I competed for band-slots and was elated to see how I did. However, the leaderboard mentality will hurt smaller or shorter-duration operations to rare entities (think BS7H as a prime example although I’m sure there are many others).

    I believe the solution is an alternative to the traditional Clublog; a means whereby a station registers his call/email address and then gets notified when he works a new mode (NOT a new band), plus perhaps 6 and 160m, since they’re by far the most difficult outlier bands we have. No need to dupe but no heated competition for “greenies” either.

19. Hello,
    Expedition leaderboards creating pileups…and that is fact.
    I followed some expeditions on clublog and mostly same call signs appear on the top IF the expedition using clublog!
    But if an expedition using not clublog these callsigns sometimes even not in the log or just worked very few bands and modes. How you could explain this?
    You will get confirmations also if the expedition upload later on to clublog (and not announced before).
    And how is it possible to have so big pileups of an same non-rare entity on 20m SSB or CW….everyone of the big guns has it already confirmed several times BUT THE BAND/SLOT is needed for the show.
    Leaderboards are only for showing…the real demand to work the DXCC for DXCC challenge, where 1 QSO in RTTY is enough and 1 QSO per band is not enough.
    Of course I want also fill up my statistic in my logging programm and sometimes follow to work many times as possible but the real big expeditions allow this (e.g. T32C, PJ4C….)
    I like expeditions who not using clublog and so just real demand will be worked by most of the hams.
    73

20. DXing is FUN! Healthy competition is good! The bigger the pile-ups the better – anything that stimulates fun is good! Well done ClubLog: keep up the good work. 73.

21. Michel many thanks fro your old kind and prompt replays, I’ve ever asked you!
    And for Clublog Search Log option.

    We just discussed in Russian talking forums some time ago the “good or bad” of Leadership options.

    Most of the answers were to restrict the Log search option ONLY to your own call after login credentials, and to leave 9 Bands / 3 modes search “models”.

    Now, to my humble opinion:

    There are a DXped targets exist. Which they would like to follow to.
    One of the highest target is to make as many QSOs as it possible (otherwise, there is no fun to CQ without replays) and the DXped fonds are spent for nothing.
    There is not a secret, the TOPs are have the best setup and might be contacted by DXpeds relatively easy to improve the DXped statistic.
    Any expedition has a budget linked to resources (mostly linked to time of operation), and as far as the time is final, and the propagation is not 100% predictable, the leaders “point” DXped strategy to make QSOs on the “required” by Clublog search engine spots. That strategy is not a “little pistols’ dream” of course.

    The other end of story, most of the HAMs now have a relativity simple setups. Due to many (and every year more and more…) possible RFIs to “world of gadgets” around us. None of neighbors would like to listen a story about new DXCC one, if it’s favorite gadget stops to work the same time when you touch your paddle for CW.

    So, the casual HAM is owner of quite simple setup. If the time of DXped is “dedicated” to Bands slots of TOPs – the “little pistols” will be out of holiday!

    If you check the “Best 100 leaders” of different DXpeds – you will see that all of them are the same. Well known, so, there is no real meaning in this subject. Most of them have the DXCC on 9 bands / 3 modes ages ago – but will never miss the “carnival of their ego!” of every coming DXped.

    Just, as it wrote before, due to this option exists in Clublog DXped mode option!

    The most helpful thing is a Best time for working! This option is much more useful than to watch (and “little pistols to be hurt”) again and again the ones, who were stolen might be all times new ones from many others, who are really in need of this.

    That’s just my humble opinion. Nothing more. 🙂

22. Just idea has came… To analyze the unique stations per band / mode for specific period in past (one… five… ten years…) To know “real picture” of uniques have worked the specific DXped while it’s active and to “propose” to the DXped ops to be presented on the specific band / mode. Without any differences between “big gunes / little pistols”. The proposals might be done for different continents of hunting operators. Of course, statistic will be changed after any new DXped log has been uploaded.

    This dinamic picture might advise to the DXped ops the “proper” bands | modes to work the “rest” stations by destinations. The only thing, the DX hunters need – to analize the best time for theu restinations and to wait for the DXped CQ – most needed band / mode! 🙂

23. Hi all,
    Nice and polite discussion, although this “leaderboard” topic can be seen as a sensitive one.
    Just a few ideas :
    What about taking into account previous slots from previous expeditions logs (if feasible)?
    For example, if I already worked T32C from 40 up to 10m in both CW and SSB, then those slots would be hidden for the next T32 expedition (Unless I explicitely type a specific call-sign). I hope this would motivate people to chase the slots they really need.

    In addition, in each country/zone/continent “ranking”, a simple click enables to see all the “slots” of others. This shouldn’t be so easy and as explained before, other people slots should be visible if and only if I explicitely look for their call-sign in the QSO search window.

    Now, Club log is a wonderfull tool which very practical stats (the recent addition of band/mode/freq versus time is a great idea indeed). But comparing a 30-men, 1-month long expedition with a 2-men 1-week expedition cna be somehow hazardous. I’d priviledge the ratio of unique call works rather than the number of unique calls, but this is my personal feeling,

    73 (and keep up this great job !)
    Ronan, F8AFC

    This would prevent

24. KQ8M:
    ———————-
    My suggestion is having slots as follows: 9 band slots, 1 CW slot, 1 SSB slot, 1 RTTY/Digital slot. In my opinion there is only one reason to have to work a DXpedition every band, every mode is to brag. It has nothing to do with awards.
    ———————–
    I agree, this is the way it should be, the way Clubloglog shows the slots now provocates making useless contacts derpiving the Challenge chasers new bands.

25. KQ8M (and several others suggest):

    “My suggestion is having slots as follows: 9 band slots, 1 CW slot, 1 SSB slot, 1 RTTY/Digital slot. In my opinion there is only one reason to have to work a DXpedition every band, every mode is to brag. It has nothing to do with awards.”

    I agree…we certainly don’t need separate “points” for 160CW, 160SSB, 160 AM, 160FM, 160RTTY, 160SSTV, 160Moonbounce, etc. A recent example of this was an EU station who asked 7O6T to move to 160SSB during Japan’s brief propagation window. Shame on both the station who asked and the operator for obliging!

    I also endorse the idea of emphasizing unique callsigns as the most important objective for expeditions…not total QSOs. Quality over quantity should be the goal.

    73, Bill W4ZV

26. Excellent points raised here so far. As someone who is most definitely a “little pistol”, I don’t at all begrudge the big guns for being big guns…they have spent the time, money, and commitment to build a big station and deserve to use it just as much as I deserve to use my attic antennas.

    But as a newer DXer, I’m often working hard to get even one QSO with a DXpedition for an all-time New One. So as I’m calling and hoping for my first QSO on, say, 17m CW, I’ll look up the calls of the stations being worked on Club Log. I wish I had a dollar for every time I find out it’s someone who’s already worked them on 17m SSB and RTTY, AND 20m CW, AND 15m CW, etc. And meanwhile I’m still in the pileup looking for QSO #1.

    I can’t help but think the Leaderboards are a big part of the reason why that sort of behavior goes on. As mentioned by others, it seems like it has brought a “contesting” aspect to DXing that I don’t think is necessarily healthy for the hobby as a whole. But at the same time the Leaderboards are definitely a useful source of info.

    So I agree that perhaps the default option should be for a 9 band / 3 mode leaderboard. You could add a “first-past-the-post” aspect to the rankings too, such that whoever knocks off the 9/3 combo the quickest is in first place, etc. That would keep the “contesting” DXers happy, since they would still have their race to the top. And it would keep us little pistols happy too, since the Big Guns would likely clear out of the pileups sooner when they only have 9-12 band slots to work instead of 26.

27. I have always chased band/mode slots for every DXPedition even before ClubLog came along, and will continue to do so even if DXPeditions select not to use this feature…. I continue to applaud DXPeditions for their efforts and energy expended to bring new ones to thousands of hams. I often here complaints about the low power / QRP ops; however, they have to understand what reality is….which is this… For those DXPeditions that are two weeks or longer in duration, they will have a pretty good shot at working them; however, for the very short operations that are a week or so….. Reality is you may not be able to get through. It is what it is. I would recommend trying to upgrade antenna systems or consider an amplifier as an option. I enjoy low power as well, but consciously decide to use power for DXPeditions that I “need”. Life is too short for QRP.

28. I recognize Leaderboard as a healthy motivational tool for DXpedition, in general. Leaderboard is just information being available. The reaction to this information and the way people manage it is what should be discussed. In society this happens all the time and there is no different here.

    Prior to the leaderboard info being available every issue has always been there. The bad reaction may disturb some of the healthy goals of Leaderboard, but the overall result is positive in my opinion.

    We have discussed similar issues in the past. Remember when DXCluster was going to kill the fine art of dxing? Technology is not a bad thing. The distempered reaction we have to it is. As time goes by we tend to assimilate and get the best of technology has to offer.

    Fred – PY2XB

29. Every DXpedition has its “neighborhood.” We little pistols in N.A. had it easy with Malpelo, far from easy with Bhutan. It would be good if the “neighborhood” would stand by while there’s an opening to the other side of the world. The DX operator can manage this if everyone cooperates. At times A5A was barely readable here while the “neighbors” were posting “worked with 1 watt.” On-line logs should serve to verify a station’s QSOs and not be a bragging post for someone who made 26 QSOs.

30. First of all I’d like to thank Michael G7VJR and the CLUBLOG team for the wonderful facilities offered to DXers and Dxpeditions’, free of charge. Thank you team.

    I think Michael’s initiative to promote a “uniques” leader board http://www.clublog.org/uniques.php is a great idea.

    Michael also says “ the leader boards will become optional (at the discretion of the expedition managers)… I see no reason to reserve this choice for myself – let the expedition choose!”

    I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. DXpeditions dictate how they want to do things. Whether it’s a focus on 6m EME, PSK, 160m, the difficult paths or QSO totals etc.

    I am sort of an old timer, having started DXing in my teens, and before the internet. Expectations then (before the 90s) were somewhat different to what they are now. I was once happy working a Dxpedition on 1 band, now it’s a “disaster” if I don’t fill in all the slots I need as I know some of these may not be on again in my life time. However once I have worked a slot I don’t call it again the next time, I concentrate on something I haven’t worked further down the band, of course there is the argument what do you work when you have them all. I think the major gripe for most is the fact there are a hard core group (in their thousands) who need (for whatever reason) to work every DXpedition on every band, every activation. This reason is sometimes leader boards, but not always. This tends to keep the guys with the smaller stations and less time out of the log. Who cares I ask? Well we need to encourage new DXers into the hobby , once they are working stuff and have been bitten by the bug, they may become the DXpeditioners of the future. I think that issue is a wider one and should not be directed at CLUBLOG in particular.

    Neil G0JHC

31. Interesting enough, a few weeks ago, I’ve written an article in my blog, portuguese only, about the leaderboard. On my article I wrote: “after all, there is not any award in the world that counts band x mode but the greatest ego in the country award.”
    73 Cesar, PY2YP

32. Chasing DX is and always has been a competitive game. Hams who dislike competition probably should stick with rag chewing or the like.

    Club Log has almost single-handedly revived interest in the chase, particularly among the long-time DXers who have fewer mountains to climb.

    The true big guns can usually work the DX very quickly, and, IMHO,do not usually get in the way of the smaller stations. Good grief, even the smallest pistol had a fair shot at T32C, no
    matter how many big guns worked ’em in a couple of dozen slots.

    Club Log has been a huge shot in the arm for DXing and has increased interest in the hunt and participation in our hobby.

    73,

    Al, K6RIM

33. Few weeks ago I am wrote in forum about disease “SLOTOMANIA”
    read http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?344306-YEMEN!!/page4 post #469

34. Michael,
    Thank you for all your hard work. You have added another dimension to DXing. I particularly appreciate the correction email received when a log is uploaded. It is like having someone look over your log personally. I did not realize how many errors were made by my logging program!

    I have a medium size station. In fact, I do not have WARC band antennas. I work those bands with 100 watts, a tuner and one of the beams, either a tribander or 40 meters. In any event I have worked what I have heard from the latest DXpeditions on all the bands. Chasing DX is a hit or miss endeavor at the best. That is what makes it fun. There is instant gratification when it is a hit and their is patience and tenacity when it is a miss. I think the negative responses you are receiving are people who want instant gratification all the time. It is what we strive for but we have to consider the consequences when that is not achieved. There is always another day, another DXpedition and if we miss one entity (like P5… darn!) it is not the end of the world. We just have to work harder next time. Probably improve our station even try hilltopping with a small yagi field day style.

    Again thanks for the wonderful website. It has changed the hobby for me!

    Bill Kendrick
    N6RV
    President SCDXC

35. Fred,
    Actually, IMHO, the cluster has done harm. It has caused many to not listen. That is very evident when you see spot after spot of the wrong callsogn even though that station is signing his callsign during those times. I have sent a number of corrections at times yet the same mistakes are made. Makes me wonder how many people get back cards with NIL (not in log).

    Tim, KQ8M

36. There is a comment I have to make about those that say: “If you can’t work them then upgrade your station”.

    To those people I would like to say that many people, including myself (disabled), that do not have money laying around that they can use and perhaps they live in an area where they can’t improve antennas. I would say most of the hams in the world are in this predicament.

    I once had a VE tell me that then I should find another hobby. That is an extremely poor attitude to have or has ham radio turned into a rich mans/womans hobby and the less fortunate should stay out?

    I have a modest station, antennas mounted on the roof. Tribander at 40 Ft. 80 inv V with apex just under the tribander 15 feet above the roof of my house which is where the tribander is located. I can work pretty much anything I want on any bands/modes I want but do I? No..I for one find it unsatisfying to just go into pileups just to show off to the others that I can beat you without trying.

    Now I would like to say that I find ClubLog one of my best assets. In no way am I condemning ClubLog but I am condemning the attitude of the holier than thou individuals. The “I will squash you because I can” attitudes.

    Yes, it is up to the DXpeditions on what they want to do after all it is their money. But it is also up to the individual to be cognizant of those that are less fortunate than most and be more courteous towards those.

    To the gentleman that stated earlier that he feel is no change in the amount of people that work everything everywhere is sorely mistaken. I know some of the stations and they never did this before this “competition” started. There was an individual in WV who is now deceased that was disliked by many because of that attitude. We might as well do away with the expeditions doing dupe checking. After they can run the same station over and over because they are so loud and really rack up the QSO’s for totals. The heck with uniques.

37. I fully agree with Bill W4ZV

    Regards
    Pierre HB9AMO

38. I have to fully agree with VK4MA. I have a small station, I do have an amp but my primary antenna is a multi band vertical with a compromised radial field in a restricted neighborhood. The big guns don’t bother me, they all get worked in the first few days and then I just compete with the medium stations until I can get through. I’ve never felt anyone has taken a QSO away from me even if they have worked that entity before.

    I like to compete with my friends and the leader boards work great for that. I you aren’t in to competition just ignore the leader board. I have learned to use RTTY and I am improving my CW with that competition. And don’t think you can’t get up the leader board with a small station. When the propagation is good I have done quite well. I have often been in the top 10 – 20 in North America.

    I guess my main point is, whether I make a particular DX contact has more to do with propagation than the pileup.

    Pete W6OP

39. Michael, you’ve come up with a super aid for us DXers. I would like to add my support for a display of just “Bands worked” and also “Modes worked” rather than the 26 slots (or whatever the particular operation is using). Once a particular band is confirmed that should be sufficient; there are no awards that I know of for working T32C on all bands and all modes. The “Propagation Suggestions” display is really good, it’s very helpful to know when others in my area have worked a station on a particular band. Would be nice if you could split up VEs though – e.g. VE5 thru 7 and VE1 thru 4 + VO would be good; conditions are often quite different for the East Coast and West Coast.

40. I’m a small station op but have no problem with ClubLog and its leaderboard etc.
    It’s always a thrill to get through on 100w and a wire antenna, a fun challenge.
    What irks me are the stations with their ego trips, cluster comments “tnx for x number of bands”
    or “tnx for x band slots”. If I want to know that kind of info I’ll go to ClubLog. Doesn’t do any
    good for the station that hasn’t gotten through.
    Gary, K5SWW

41. Tim Hello. You are highlighting the bad of it. In my opinion the balance is positive though: DXCluster helps a busy person with heavy professional and family commitments to get some rares one. It helps to announce that a QRP station is in a given frequency. It helps people know that six meter, or any difficult band, is opened and so on. It contributes to efficiency. This is not necessarly bad.
    It can be turned off if one does not like to use it.
    In my opinion, the fine art of dxing is there in a modern way. Isn’t that what is happening to our lifes in general ?

42. Fred et al,
    I most certainly agree with Tim even though years ago I ran one of the major node clusters. It was fun back then and I’m sure those that still run clusters find it fun also. That’s not the point though. The point is chasing DX and for those who only want to get on the air and work DX without actually having to do anything except sit and watch the cluster or have it set to ring a bell or some such when a DX station gets spotted then the cluster is made for them. They aren’t actually doing anything besides sitting there and watching. Did they actually come home and tune the band. Start at the bottom and slowly tune up the band digging in the noise for that all elusive rare one? Nope why bother. Come home turn on the cluster and wait for someone to do all the work for you. And if you are a true DXer then it’s not work at all, it’s the fun of the chase. As for the person who has family commitments etc we’ve all been there and still are. Back before clusters people actually tuned the band(s) after supper or spending time with their families. I don’t think Danny Weil, Gus Browning or the Colvins to name but a few every worried about not getting spotted on a cluster. Back in their day there weren’t any but boy we sure had fun tuning the bands listening for them. And maybe getting on the phone and alerting our buddies that we just worked so and so. I suppose as you say the clusters prompt efficiency but I think it really promotes laziness. If all you want is the DX call in the log then teach your kids what buttons to push on the keyer for CW or SSB and let them have at it. Nothing like coming home after a hard day at the office and find out your station is in the log for the latest DXpedition. No having to watch the cluster tonight. Kind of like going to a ball game and one guy is going to bat for your team because he’s the best. All the other players will do the running. Actually only the fastest runner will do the running. Why bother having the others bat or run when the best ones can do it. Chasing DX from a cluster isn’t chasing DX and if that is all you do then you aren’t really a DXer. Rather you are an operator because someone else has done the chasing for you. And yes I know you still have to throw out your call and get in the log but that’s all you’ve actually done. Just my opinion of course from actually hunting the DX since 1960.

    Barry KS7DX / VE3CDX and a bunch of others.

43. DXpeds for Big Guns! What’s next? CQ only happy owners of IC-7800 / FTDX-5000? SteppIR 4 el, 3 el – QRX!
    Regarding the cluster usage, I have a one fantastic “dream”, to unite all the Cluster Sysops (truely speaking there are not so many, as they are re-transmitt the posted spots by some well known ones!) and to round the DX spot frequency in the cluster settings to the MHz (mode) value. Let say 14003, 14025.4, 14040 all should be rounded up to 14060 – to show that all of them are on CW part of the band! 14150, 14260, 14320 – let say, to 14200, to indicate that they belong to 14 MHz ssb part in the present time! And after this kind of information only the stations who can HEAR the DX and also policy of it’s operation (split, destinations called, etc.) will have a chance to work the DX. Despite on setup differences (Antennas will be the best argument for DXing!)

44. Why do we need them ??? All it creates is DX hogs that probably DO NOT need the entity in the first place. Also when the dx’pedition posts that for example EU = 25,000 and NA = 3,500 and SA = 350 Q’s. This just creates tension and bad feelings as shown on the dx clusters.

    I say,, do away with them as they are not warranted

45. I am a low power stn (100w + one inverted vee for 40m because of antenna restrictions). I often get on other bands with the assistance of a tuner and i know my signal isn’t going to let me get in and out of pileup in a flash. Before the advent of Clublog, i was logging new ones typically on one band/mode only. The leaderboard “greenies” have made me extract the most out of my humble setup. I may not fill up slots but i do certainly look for them and in that process i have learnt how to break pileups with 100w and a wire antenna, understand propagation and also log some unexpected, ‘unspotted’ DX for new ones while tuning around.

    I do understand that there is an element of unfairness demonstrated by the big guns who are only satisfying their ego. That doesn’t matter to me because i am only competing against myself and my handicap of living in an urban concrete environment that is antenna unfriendly. Competition is good and DXing is just that. It is all about the challenges and overcoming them, irrespective of how many (big guns) there may be. Keep up the good work with Clublog and let the DXped choose how it wishes to display the leaderboard if that be the way forward!

    73, Deepak VU2CDP (Mumbai)

    PS: i missed T32C. But filled up my first-ever greenie row with 7O6T. Life goes on. DX is!

46. All this talk about “big gun” greed is just ridiculous.

    Are you actually proposing that the guys at the top of the 9BDXCC table be banned from working any rare dx at all. These guys have virtually everything worked on all bands.
    Someone better tell Manchester United to stop playing football – they have already won the title numerous times and they are unjustly depriving less competent, wealthy or motivated teams from having their shot.

    It is also time that w3lpl, k3lr etc shut down their contest stations. It is simply unfair that these guys win the US section of the major contests each year.

    We should also shut down the cluster, beacons, cw skimmer etc so that the guy using two cans linked with a piece of string has a better chance of working the dx.

    You guys also forget that traditional DXCC is not the only game in town. Some ops participate in the annual dxcc challenge. Others are now trying to work 9BDXCC totals on LOTW. This necessitates reworking dx that techically they have already worked.

    I hear constant griping about the decline in the number of ham radio ops – no wonder – if you guys had your way there would be no activity at all. As for attracting younger hams – forget it – teens are actually interested in an advancement in technology not hanging around with crusty old dinosaurs who do nothing but whinge and complain whenever any new technology is introduced into our hobby.

    I actually like working rare dx stations whether I need them or not. If that makes me a DX Hog well oink oink

    Paul – vk4ma

47. I didn’t see a single person here, other than you, proposing that “big guns” should shut down their stations and not work DX if they’ve already confirmed it.

    “You guys also forget that traditional DXCC is not the only game in town. Some ops participate in the annual dxcc challenge. Others are now trying to work 9BDXCC totals on LOTW. This necessitates reworking dx that techically they have already worked.”

    And neither the DXCC Challenge nor LOTW 9BDXCC require more than one QSO on any given band/mode, which is what the conversation has been about. The CQ DX Marathon requires only one QSO, full stop! So I’m not sure what your point is.

    “I hear constant griping about the decline in the number of ham radio ops – no wonder – if you guys had your way there would be no activity at all. As for attracting younger hams – forget it – teens are actually interested in an advancement in technology not hanging around with crusty old dinosaurs who do nothing but whinge and complain whenever any new technology is introduced into our hobby.

    I actually like working rare dx stations whether I need them or not. If that makes me a DX Hog well oink oink”

    As one of the sadly all-too-rare group of hams under 35, I can say this type of attitude, plus the sniping comments on the cluster about “no-code CBers”, etc etc, certainly do nothing to help bring rookies into the DXing hobby.

48. With the same awards and contest being repeated every year. The same big guns work the 26 band slots to whatever semi rare DXCC country that gets activated. They do this every year. Maybe this is not so much a club log problem, but rather the award sponsors ?

    How do you draw the line ? One group only needs the place for ego booster. The other for Marathon, Diamond, Pig Hollow awards. Then another group of ops for truly for an overall “new one”.

49. I believe that anything that promotes usage of our frequencies is a good thing for our hobby. I appreciate Club Log and have continued to learn and benefit from the statistics and propagation gleaned from the leaderboard.
    DXing is a personal challenge and always will be very competative. Good operating technique and listening skills will usually end up with the “new one” in the log.

50. I think this is a matter of psychology, not just technology. Deciding where to go needs the observation by collecting a lot of data from difference sources. Discussions based on analyzing the centralized information such as Clublog are very good *objective* sources of information, and I think Michael has made a very interesting analysis.

    I’m one of those small (100W + random wire vertical) urban stations. Ham radio is a hobby and I understand people tend to and are allowed to see things very subjectively, including myself. And this is my subjective view of JA DX chaos these days. I frequently observe there’s a rather fixed ranking or a pecking order between JA stations who can work DX especially during pileups; lots of factors may involve, but I think it’s fairly apparent that so-called big guns often get the QSOs done first, and narrows the chance or the opening window available for the smaller stations. If this does not happen many times nothing will have to be done. But I’d have to say this is happening almost always these days, especially after 2011. (I observed less competition or QRMing in 2002.) So I think something have to be done.

    I appreciate and applaud the decision that Clublog decided to make leaderboards optional, and that it introduces a new metric of unique QSOs.

    73
    Kenji Rikitake, JJ1BDX(/3) es JO3FUO and N6BDX

51. I agree. Alter the leaderboards so that it only reflects a contact on each band and one on each mode. Anything beyond that is superfluous, and cuts others out of making the contacts.

    You might have the show the rank order of people making all 12 slots, so there would be some bragging rights for being the first one, or in the top 10 or in the top 100.

    Doing so would thin the pileups a bit and give an opportunity to those who don’t have $50,000 to invest equipment.

    I’m a proponent of creating a DX Efficiency award, that actually measures operating skill, not the size of ones checkbook. The most countries per dollars invested. ( or maybe dollars per country is the better measure) The winner is the one that works the most countries with the smallest investment – thus the efficiency of their operation.

    Work 100 countries with a $1000 investment and your score is $10 per country. Work 200 countries with a $20,000 investment and your score is $100 per country.

52. Oink oink. Like the many other innovative things on Club Log I enjoy the Leaderboards.

    I have never considered that anyone I see with 26 slots filled or with more filled than me ever had any detrimental effect on my chances of working DX or ever considered that they didn’t have every right to do it, good for them showing the way I say.

    I hope not too many DXpeditions choose to turn the leaderboards off because I will have do do a lot more searches to see how my other ham buddies are going.

    73 John ZL1BYZ.

53. Unique QSO’s is an interesting statistic nothing more. Thinking that a DXpedition can or should try to control this is rediculous. I agree with comments of Paul VK4MA about this.

    Folks it is my opinion that how we each behave in the pileups that has a greater effect on how many get in the DX log, not how many times we each try to work a new band/mode. I think if a station respects their fellow ham and does their best to operate by the DX code of conduct they have every right to fill 26 slots if they can.

    73 John ZL1BYZ.

54. Forget about the “code of conduct”, it wont make the EU pileups any better, ever. So the only way to make them sound more human is the artificial restrictions, and healing that slot-sickness is one of those means.

55. Good old “artificial restrictions” history has many fine examples of great outcomes from those.

    Warning! I may be a carrier of “Slot sickness”

    73 John ZL1BYZ

56. Overall, my answer is no, because Club Log is leading the way and innovating a new perspective on a game as old as Amateur Radio itself. Please, keep up the great work, make changes as required, and ten years into the future, I want Club Log to still be here.

    73, DRR

57. Thank you Michael for a very eloquent summary about leaderboards and their effects on DXing. A long time ago my math instructor told me that Venn diagrams do have their purpose and that I may actually see one after the course was over. Club Log is a great tool, and I enjoy it’s many features. I also enjoy DXing and see it as a competitive game. As for leaderboards, I consider them part of the game. I’ve pigged out on a few of them myself when the propagation was good. And I’m not a big gun. The only aluminum I have is a six meter beam. Sure, things are easier for big guns, but the rest of us have to apply other factors. (skill, patience, perseverance, determination, staying up late at night, and luck) I believe that lids and deliberate QRM do much more to hinder anyone from getting a contact than I do with wire antennas. Some of the ones I’ve known to complain about leaderboards play the annual DXCC game, or whatever it’s called. Personally, I don’t care for anything that requires me to wipe my slate clean on Jan 1, but it’s whatever pops your cork that matters.

    I think it’s great that DXpeditions will have the option to use or not use leaderboards. (I affectionately call them piggy boards) My guess is that major DXpeditions will continue to work for the numbers. I believe leaderboards played a role in HK0NA breaking the record for a tent and generator DXpedition with 195,292 QSOs. I’m looking for another DXpedition one day to break the 200,000 mark. If they do, and I have propagation, I’ll be in there doing my part to put them over the top.

    BTW: As for deliberate QRM being caused by frustration and impatience, that may be partially true. I can’t look inside a slime’s head who purposely QRMs a station, but I believe it has more to do with someone just wanting to make it difficult for the rest of us.They seem to strive on attention and the reaction they get. They get their jollies knowing they have the power to make it miserable for us to try to work a station. It’s just the kind of people they are.

58. Personally, I like the Leaderboards and referred to them numerous times during the activity period of a DXpedition using Club Log. Serious DXing is a contest. When there’s a pileup, it’s a contest to test your skill at getting through–and that is related to knowing where and when to call regardless of how big your station may be. Even if there’s no pileup, it’s a contest to see how well your station is working.
    Those who score high on the Leaderboard show that they have the skills and the equipment to work all bands and modes effectively. Little Pistols usually are aware of the limitations of their station and, perhaps, their respective DXing skills. However, as the DXpedition nears the end of its scheduled time, the pileups diminish and everyone certainly has a chance for a QSO, providing THERE IS PROPAGATION!! From here in SW Florida, there was vitually no propagtion to several recent DXpeditions. If other stations in other areas could work them on a variety of band-slots, more power to them. Use of Leaderboards was totally irrelevant.

59. With the current sophistification in logging software, it would be very easy to allow only one cw, one ssb, and one digital Qso for each unique station during the first half of the dxpedition. That way, each unique call could log three Qso’s covering three modes. After half the dxpedition time, open it up to all the guys that want 27 band slots, and let everyone work as many as sthey like. Gives everyone a chance, not just to work a nedw one, but to accumulate slots for the DXCCX Challenge award as well.

60. Leave it alone. Who are we too say how many contacts are enough. Ham radio is talking on the radio and there is nothing that is going to change some people other than maybe the dxpedition. Just because some want only one contact per band and mode doesn’t sound like something I want to get involved in. We have enough over control in my country. I didn’t like clusters when they first started but they work and who cares if people use them instead of listening as long as they are ham radio operators in this dying hobby. Let the dxpedition control their dxpedition and not us. let the flames begin.

61. My friend W4JS Jack told me about this Blog and I want to add my comment.

    The guys, including myself, who frequent the Low Band Chat Room, all agree
    that the leaderboard is addictive. One guy I know keeps saying that he is
    not going to pay attention to the Leaderboard next time, then he falls off
    the wagon.
    Humans have a competitive survival nature. I was working to get to the top
    of the Leaderboard before some guys had realized that the Leaderboard
    existed.

    Now, Leaderboard or not, I will try to get as many band modes as possible
    just for the sole reason that I would like to not have to work that
    country again in the future. One DXPed can save me a lot of QSL time and
    money for a country.

    The part of the Leaderboard that I do not like is the part where it shows
    your ranking among your peers. For example, N4NN in Jacksonville likely will
    get a QSO from Africa on 10 or 12 meters before I do just because I start
    hearing that DX about 30 minutes after he does. So, he crosses the finish
    line before I do and therefore is ahead of me in the rankings. Likewise, in
    Zone 5 or in NA, depending on your QTH, propagation may be weak or non
    existent.

    So, if they did away with the rankings but kept the online log, I would be
    quite happy. As addictive as it is, I feel compelled to compete. I have no
    discipline. I am proud to be high on the rankings, but if it was not there,
    it would not break my heart.

    Keep the online log and do away with the Leaderboard part.

    Best Regards
    Dan Schaaf
    K3ZXL http://www.k3zxl.com
    60 Meters http://www.60metersonline.net

62. Ed, Nice idea, I’m sure computers could be programed to do this but seriously see the confusion and work for the frequency cops getting the human masses to comply with instructions or even the simple word UP. Imagine the chaos that would be created getting all the callers to comply with this concept. I can imagine the DXpedition operators now. Dupe dupe dupe dupe, more time wasted and even fewer QSO’s in the log and the cops and jammers having a field day. 🙂

63. 1 ) Why not put a password?

    2 ) you’d have more registered amateur radio

    3 ) and everybody would do their facts

    4) There are also several small stations to log that cannot make the qso

    5) Sometimes I think there is more pileup on clublog hi ,not in radio

    is this difficult?

    73’s
    Tony ,IK0OZD

64. Indeed, consider for example D68C and D64K. It’s not too hard to find stations with some 40 slots for these two combined.

65. Hi All, i may have missed a post about this, but what would we see if the measurement of success for a DXpedition were to be measured on the total number of calls longed per operator per day.?
    Example, large expeditions with 32 ops and 30 days will of course make alot of qso’s, but if we look at the smaller operations, they might have a more successful daily qso rate per operator
    i think this is a more relevant assessment of success.

    73
    Ralph 5w0w